KATHRYN ROBINSON: Michael Outram is the Commissioner of the Australian Border Force and joins us now. Hi, Michael.
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Hi, Kath. Good afternoon.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Now, these findings paint a fairly grim picture of the workplace culture within the Border Force. Just how did it get to this point?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Yeah so we're now two years into a partnership with the Human Rights Commission and I first entered a partnership with Kate Jenkins, actually, and now Anna Cody. And the reason for that was that we recognise that our organisation, you know we're not immune from what other similar organisations go through. I'd observed what happened to a former organisation, I worked in the London Metropolitan Police and I saw what happened in Queensland Police, and there were some ripples on the surface in our organisation. There was no sort of systemic evidence of a problem in our organisation, but still there were ripples on the surface in terms of our sort of annual census results and some exit interviews. And so we also saw what happened nationally through the Respect at Work Inquiry. So, we decided, I decided to enter into a partnership so we could look under the bonnet and do a deep dive into our organisation. So, what's happened is we've had a Respect at Work report for the entire ABF in December and a report specifically into the marine unit, which, if you think about the marine unit, these officers go to sea four weeks at a time, they work and live in close proximity. But the report did find, to the point about culture, that they are really passionate and dedicated officers and they do some incredible work, but there are a lot of risk factors. And of course, what the reports revealed is some really concerning and confronting elements in our culture that we have to now grapple with.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Yeah, you mentioned those concerning elements there. What were some of the behaviours identified in these reports, the ones that you found most concerning?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Well, you'd call them sex discrimination, sexual harassment and sex-based harassment and, you know, things like misogynistic joking, putting women to the back of the line in terms of doing sort of tactical, difficult operations, sexualised comments, you know, behaviours that are really unacceptable, not only in the Australian Border Force, on our ships at sea, but in our society in general. And it's really disappointing, to be honest, because most officers are doing the right thing. But the report says the most concerning thing is that these workplaces are not safe for women, and I can't accept that, and so we're taking action. As I say, we're in a five year partnership here with the Human Rights Commission. There are some things around the workplace culture that we just can't sort of sit on our hands and we're having to take action now. The intention here is to work with the Human Rights Commission and we've got to drive this as a leadership team to make the ABF an exemplar and that's what we intend doing. It's going to take us a lot of hard work to do that. And the marine unit is just the starting point.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Yeah, I want to ask you about actions that will be taken down the track. But just back on the behaviours that were identified, were any of those criminal?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Well, the report says that they were possibly unlawful. What I should stress is that the report isn't sort of an assessment against compliance, against the legislation changes recently in terms of positive duty. So, it's a snapshot, really. So, I haven't identified instances where we can take action against, say, criminal, you know, sexual assaults and things like that, but the behaviours are deeply concerning. And what we've done by releasing the report, I know, you say, it was secret. In fact, I released a summary of the Human Rights Commission report to 6000 Australian Border Force officers and the detailed report to 40 of our senior executives so that they could see the confronting anecdotes that I've seen and read about. So, that's really the call to action, if you like, the call to arms and the case for change that I'm making.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Has any action been taken already for any of these behaviours that have surfaced and come to light?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Well, we've got a lot of mechanisms in place for officers to report these sorts of behaviours and actions. What the report finds is the officers are not confident enough in those mechanisms, those systems and those processes for reporting, whether that be anonymously or otherwise. So, we're having to look at that. Several times now, I did a webinar actually with Anna Cody in March to the workforce to talk about the findings and the report and where to from here, and encouraged officers who may have been subject to these behaviours to come forward with confidence. Now, nobody has so far. Now, I accept that people are probably sitting there waiting to see how serious are we about this and can they have trust and confidence in us as a leadership team and we've got to give them that trust and confidence. And so, you know, we've got to work really hard, as I say, particularly over the next few weeks to get those officers. If there are officers out there who are feeling they're sitting on the fence, should I come forward and speak up? I want to say to them, I will look after them and I would encourage them to do so, but we as an organisation have to change the way we do things, to encourage people to come forward more seamlessly, but more importantly, to challenge these behaviours in the workplace. You know, I can't sort of live with the idea that we have leaders in the Border Force who are bystanders to these kinds of behaviours.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Well, so if that is found to be the case, will there be repercussions for any of those in ABF leadership if it's found that they knew about the problems but did nothing?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Yeah. So, if we get evidence of that, of course we'll deal with that. But firstly, what I've done is I've written personally to each of our commanding officers in the marine unit to make clear my expectations. And our expectations in terms of our values and the behaviours that we expect to see upheld, and my expectations of them in terms of taking action. And that's now been put into their performance development agreements. But also we're providing support and training to those officers. And the Commander, Maritime Border Command, who's SES Band 2, has been engaging with those commanding officers. You think about four weeks at sea under the command of one officer, we need the behaviour on those ships to be right and the leadership on those ships to be right.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: ABF Commissioner Michael Outram is talking about the Human Rights Commission's report on sexual harassment in the Border Force here on RN Drive. Michael, across the two reports, the Human Rights Commission has made 42 recommendations which you have accepted. Those recommendations haven't yet been made public. Are you able to discuss at all the key recommendations that you're going to take on and accept and move forward with?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Absolutely. So, in the report, one of the reports is the whole of the ABF against the respect for work framework. So, the recommendations fall broadly under a number of key headings. Leadership, culture, knowledge. So, knowledge goes to our policy and our colleagues and our training. Risk management, so, you know, how do we build a safety culture through risk management practices, what's our risk appetite. The support mechanisms we can put in place around officers who do come forward. Reporting and response, and this goes to how people feel confident in the mechanisms when they do report wrongdoing, that the organisation will appropriately, in a timely way, take appropriate action and be transparent in what we do. Of course, how we monitor and evaluate that. And one thing that the report has picked up is that data is a real problem here. We have some absences of data in our leadership and we need data to understand what's going on. So, we've got to work with the Department of Home Affairs to really build the data system so we can monitor and evaluate how we're going. I mean, we need to be confident in five years time or before then even, that we're making change, we're making a difference, and, of course, there are next steps. So, broadly speaking, both reports cover off on that. The marine unit went specifically to identity, values, culture, diversity, inclusion and workplace behaviours. And in terms of the workplace behaviours, there were 14 recommendations in total in the marine unit report. And those that go to workplace behaviours are the most urgent that we're having to discuss again about leadership, about the behaviour officers towards each other, about respect and inclusion, and particularly of women.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: Just finally, Michael, what timeframe have you put on that unit, the marine unit, for it to become safe for women?
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Well, as soon as possible. So, we are actually putting in place, we've already got a marine improvement program. I'm taking my leadership team away for a day in mid May with the Sex Discrimination Commissioner and her team and we will come out of there with a statement of commitment to our workforce. I personally want to apologise to those women in our workforce who've been subject to these behaviours and I'm hoping that as part of that statement of commitment, my leadership team also sign up to an apology. And most importantly, that we come out there with a clearly agreed plan of action which will phase things out. And you could appreciate, in terms of training, changing our policies and procedures and leadership and accountability, those things should be able to be done pretty quickly. Changing our back end systems around reporting mechanisms, code of conduct, investigations, data systems and getting that system will take slightly longer, but we are going to do more deep dives with the Human Rights Commission. So, we'll be able to test as we go in other parts of the ABF over the next three years of this five year partnership to make sure that by the end of it, we've set the ABF up as an exemplar, not just to do the right thing in terms of the law and to acquit our responsibilities in terms of positive duty, but to actually be an exemplar. And that's the target.
KATHRYN ROBINSON: We look forward to speaking to you more on these recommendations, how they're implicated and implemented, rather, and also the further investigations that will be carried out. Commissioner of the Australian Border Force, Michael Outram. Thank you very much for joining me.
MICHAEL OUTRAM: Been my pleasure. Thank you.